Exploring Psychedelics and Mental Wellness with Matt Zemon

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Music.

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Welcome to the Tragedy Academy, a show created to bridge societal divides in

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a judgment-free zone using candor and humor.

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My name is Jay, and we are joined today by Matt Zaman. How are you doing today, Matt?

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Jay, I'm doing well. How are you doing? Living the dream.

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Matt is the author of an Amazon bestseller, Psychedelics for Everyone,

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a beginner's guide to these powerful medicines for anxiety, depression, and more.

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Can't tell you how excited I am about this. I think I could actually go through

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here and tell you that I have all these ICD-10 codes in your title.

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And I'm sure the more I probably check a lot of those.

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And Gary can probably confirm with me that he has a few of these as well that we live through.

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How are you doing today, Gary? Doing good. Happy to have you on.

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This is definitely something me and Jay talk about a lot. And it's good to have an expert.

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We have our series, but we haven't really studied it much at all.

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So looking forward to everything you have to say.

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Looking forward to this conversation. It seems like you've been through a bunch

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of transformation and growth and you have me curious and yeah,

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looking forward to this.

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I love that you're curious because that means that you're passionate about what

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you do and how it impacts humanity.

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A lot of people want to just tell you about what they've gone through,

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not, you know, listen to others and take their experience as an additional lens

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that they could use themselves.

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That's right. So thank you for that. Yeah, that's this is all about learning,

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healing and growing in all directions. Oh, absolutely.

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So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you,

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you know, stumble upon this journey and go from there?

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I am probably the last person who would think I'd be here today having this discussion.

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I had some friends invite me to a guided magic mushroom or psychedelic psilocybin experience.

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And that was so far out of my comfort zone. But they were trusted friends and

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they told me I was going to learn more about myself.

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And I like to travel and this is a chance to travel deep within.

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I was like, okay, that sounds pretty cool. But I went in with low expectations.

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And in that first journey, I reconnected with my mom who died when I was 22.

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She was 49. I felt incredibly safe and loved.

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And then in the next instant, realized that I don't feel safe and loved in my everyday life.

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And I saw kind of story after story that I'd been telling myself that just wasn't true, kind of unravel.

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Came out of that ceremony and thought, what the hell was that? It was incredible.

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Ended up going back to school like as soon as possible to get a master's in

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psychology and neuroscience science to understand the science of it.

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But then I also was traveling around the country and the world,

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experiencing psychedelics delivered by different types of practitioners.

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So MDs, PhDs, Taita, shaman, and just did a deep dive into exploring consciousness.

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And today I straddle the spirit where I do most of my work is in the spiritual

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world, working with spiritual leaders and people who are inviting people into

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kind of the sacred process of psychedelics.

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But then I also work with medical professionals and how they can incorporate

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spiritual best practices into their.

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Into their delivery mechanisms and protocols. So I help the spiritual people

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develop medical best practices and vice versa.

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And I just am thoroughly loving this continued exploration and realizing that

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this isn't a one and done thing. It's a lifelong practice.

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That's beautiful. And I'd like to take

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a moment and pause on the fact that you are working in both fields where you're

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paying attention to the spirituality behind it or the religious influences or

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the reality-based understandings that come from the use of these plant-based medicines.

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But at the same time, understanding that science is not wrong and neither is spirituality.

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They just read two different ways about the same thing.

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They're describing what one person feels feels one way, but looks like this on a graph, right?

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So I commend you for immersing yourself in both sides of it,

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because I feel like a lot of people, when they find that spiritual journey,

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they tend to leave behind the logical people that are in their lives.

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And start dancing around in Birkenstocks, right?

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And everybody doesn't understand it. But if they turned around and paid it backwards,

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not paid it forward, or tip backwards and tell them, hey, look,

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what you believe is this is actually what they're talking about over here and vice versa.

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Give it a moment. Maybe this type of plant medicine mimics this.

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That's one of the things that I want to get into later is how plant medicine

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can be a faster gateway or a different gateway into what is obtained through

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long-term meditation meditation,

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or internal reflection, or prayer, or whatever label you want to put on it.

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But to me personally, I feel like they're just a mirror.

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And the in-between is knowing that you're there.

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Let's stick with this for just a moment, though. This is a really beautiful

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concept that you just brought up.

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And in the old days, we just had healers. And the healers were both spiritual

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healers and medical healers.

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And as we have progressed in Western society, and progress is even probably

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the wrong word, as we have evolved in Western society, we have bifurcated those roles.

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There is medical healer, which is the role of doctors and scientists,

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and then there are spiritual healers, which we have left to the clergy.

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What's interesting about psychedelics or entheogens, it's another term when

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they're used in kind of a sacramental manner.

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They play in both realms. And it's completely fair to say, you know,

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if we gave psychedelics to just the clergy, they don't have the latest knowledge

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of my brain and my body to keep me safe. Totally a fair argument.

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And conversely, if we're to give psychedelics just to the medical professionals,

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they don't have the same amount of knowledge of the spiritual realm to keep my spirit safe.

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So it feels to me that we need a reconciliation or

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a collaboration between these two groups and

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that there is there are certainly no shortage of people who who

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for whatever for their different reasons are looking for this

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type of learning healing and growing there's plenty of

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work for everybody but the two of them working together spiritual

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and medical really is what's needed in my opinion to to get to the level of

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healing that that transforms the world and that's that i'm excited about i believe

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it's happening and it's and it's happening in perfect time so So we are an advanced technological age,

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and we're moving at Mach 1 and then some, right?

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And we know process-based scenarios are going to be a thing of the past at some point.

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And process-based, the medical field is not going to like to hear this,

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but it's still a process chart to get down to the diagnosis.

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And AI is going to take a lot of that over. And I think that that's a good thing

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for the simple fact that it will allow a healer to be a healer,

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like you're explaining.

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It'll allow a person to stand in those shoes and be able to access empathy and

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not feel like they're being questioned for their intelligence,

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for that virtual Rolodex in their head that says liver, pancreas, or whatever it might be.

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They have that opportunity to now exercise what it is to be human.

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I could only imagine living in a role that is placed in a box and you can't

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utilize certain tools except for outside of that box.

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You use the ones that are given to you, but inside the box, you have to try

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to make them mimic the ones that are on the inside and it just doesn't work.

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Music.

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So we're taught very young to give up our agency, right? We give it up to our

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parents. We, the doctors are in many ways are the high priests of our society.

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We, they know better for us. And what we know is what we're told.

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Where do we give them up to our teachers and over and over we give up our, our power.

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One thing that I have learned in this process is that we are all powerful.

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We are all beautiful. We are all capable of, of being loved,

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of generating love. love, and in many ways, we know what's best for us.

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Sometimes we tell ourselves stories and get confused on what's best for us,

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but at its core, we know we are powerful.

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These medicines are about taking back that power, about reminding ourselves,

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remembering that we're okay and that we don't need anything in the outside world to be okay.

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And we don't need to transform into something else.

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We That's a different modality than what is oftentimes done in our numbing of

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the symptoms medical process.

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That, oh, you're not feeling well.

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You are broken. You are hurt. You need to numb this pain to move on to the next

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phase of whatever it is you're doing. This is a different process.

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At the end of the day, I feel like a lot of them are symptoms of living in a

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false reality or to a mask.

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And over time, your body and mind starts to suffer because you're playing to

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an alternate identity that you think society wants you to have or whatever you

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were given from your parents.

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And that over time, you collect all of these issues, you don't release them.

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And then you end up with some form of sickness or, you know,

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malaise, whatever it might be.

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It's all centered around all of the layers that you're putting between yourself and authenticity.

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And that's just my interpretation of it I think that's a beautiful interpretation,

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they never get to the root of what's wrong with you I got a friend that broke

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his leg in Germany and they gave him Tylenol he's like what the fuck I need something stronger

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he's like does it hurt when you're laying down with an elevator he's like no

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it hurts when you walk on it and he's like it hurts when

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I walk on it and he's like don't walk on it you have to

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let it heal like I'm not gonna just give you oxycontin

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you know and he's like well America they'd give you a jar this big

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of you know whatever they're like no you need to

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stay off of it elevate it do what I told you to do

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wait four or six weeks you don't need opiates like you'll be fine and like it

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heals the right way without like now having an addiction to some shit or like

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the damage to the liver or the other things but I feel like doctors will you

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have high blood pressure they give you a medicine and for high blood pressure.

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Now that causes some problem with your thyroid.

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Now they give you some thing that fix your thyroid and that causes a problem with this.

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And all of a sudden, you're doing six things when they could have just figured

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out a way to like, what was causing the blood pressure or.

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You know, I think that's the same with like mental health. It's like,

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we'll just treat the symptom.

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We're not going to treat, you know, we'll give you Zoloft or,

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you know, all these, you know, who knows what's in that shit.

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You know, I know it's in psilocybin or it's in marijuana or something that grows, but no one knows.

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Like most people don't know it's in all these random medications and they just

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up the dosage. That's their way. Like, oh, it's not working anymore.

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I'll give you more, more, more. You know, I think it's a marketing problem.

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I think that, like, absolutely, you know, weed, when they brought out the reefer

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madness and magic mushrooms, man, like everybody just thinks of like 60s hippies

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and then they're like, that can't be like medicine.

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That's just drugs that people do to get high. So I think the marketing is the

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problem, like holding it back.

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I like that, Gary, that you brought up the medication piece and how it impacts

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you because I had a conversation with my own psychiatrist,

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psychiatrist at one point because I had a fear of what medication could become

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in a long-term scenario when you're dealing with mental health issues.

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Because obviously, psilocybin wasn't on the table, right?

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Or ketamine or LSD or 5-MeO-DMT or whatever it is, those aren't on the table.

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But what's on the table is a pause button. And that's what the medications that

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we've come up with to this,

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you know, at this day and age is that you can hand me a Zoloft or a Prozac or

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something like that and give me a moment of clarity to address why I'm in this scenario to begin with.

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And I don't think we do that. We don't combine meditation.

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We don't combine therapy in the right ways where we give somebody the opportunity to see the rope,

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that proverbial rope that is you and where the knots lie so you have the opportunity

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to unravel them rather than just taking the medicine and ignoring the knots

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or creating more, right?

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And just continuing on through your life. So I kind of like to think that there

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is a place for it until there's not a place for it.

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Like if it's a mechanism now, it should be at least used in that manner versus,

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you know, just some kind of blanket over the problem.

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What you're talking about is using, and I'll use antidepressants as they were

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originally designed, which was a short-term stabilization type of medication.

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They weren't meant to be decade or multi-decade long solutions where you set it and forget it.

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And multiple things I think happen in today's overprescribing and medicalization

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process. I think people identify that with their diagnoses.

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It's not that they don't feel they are experiencing depression or experiencing anxiety.

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They say, I am depressed. I am anxious.

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That's a horrible self-affirmation while you're at it. It's a tough affirmation, yeah.

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They trade sometimes feelings of depression, anxiety, and other items for really

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pretty awful side effects.

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They find themselves gaining weight, find themselves getting tired.

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Some of the youth have suicidal ideation.

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In some of these SSRIs, we have sexual dysfunction rates up to like 71%.

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These are big trade-offs that affect your interaction with the world.

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And I don't think we've really explained that thoroughly enough when we're choosing

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whether we want to do an antidepressant or an anti-anxiety or any other type of medication.

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Back to marketing, like Gary said. And it's back to marketing. Yeah, absolutely.

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Education in the medical field as well, I believe, is something that could be benefited from.

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With regard to the spiritual and energetic applications that are the unknowns

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in the medical field and paying attention to that.

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Yeah, they already go to school for a long time, but some of the things that

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they study could be enhanced with, again, without a doubt.

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And there's a wide range of medical professionals.

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There's what's the expression, C's get degrees.

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There's a man, brother, I got one of them on my wall. There we go.

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Of what people can afford. And there are beautiful practitioners who are super

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thoughtful and holistic and integrative and all of that.

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And then there are other practitioners who just aren't. let's say for just a

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moment on this and talk about ketamine ketamine is legal in all 50 states it's

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used off-label for some of this mental health work that we're talking about.

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And many of the ketamine clinics I would call pump and dump which means you

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go in there you get an IV hooked up to your arm they take your vitals they give

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you a ketamine experience,

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they let you recover and they send you on your way they haven't prepared you

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in advance with the intention setting and they haven't done integration afterwards

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about helping you unpack this,

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And they believe it's a biochemical reaction, period, versus those of us who

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come from the more spiritual, psychedelic space where we say,

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no, it's a biochemical, psychosocial, spiritual process. It's all important.

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And you need to spend time developing the mindset and getting people prepared

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for this experience. And then you need to spend time, the most important time

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is that after the experience, that when the brain has neuroplasticity,

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and they can start shaping and changing behavior.

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But they need to unpack what they've experienced and then have a community to

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support them in this process.

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So again, buyer beware. You can pay the same amount for a ketamine clinic who

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does what I just described, and one that will give you preparation and integration.

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I love that. I think this is very similar to when the younger generation,

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say back when I was in high school, and given the opportunity,

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I didn't, but a lot of people did shrooms.

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And now in retrospect, when I look at it, I saw a lot of people quit on life.

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It seemed like nothing matters. Why would we even do this?

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Things like that, you know, realizing that an ego death requires wisdom behind

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it. Otherwise, you don't understand what it actually means.

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So I feel like a lot of that generation will try shrooms without the education

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that you're describing, you know, the process going in, the process going out,

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what it is that you're actually witnessing in there, whether it's metaphorically,

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whether it's spiritually,

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whether it's logically, whatever it is.

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But you have to have that time to realize that those are care wounds and they're

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generational inspirational issues.

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And they're all the things that are looped up in what makes you,

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you. Every single layer of you. And you have to face them all at once.

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Oh, no shit at 16. Oh, no shit at 47. The hell am I going to do if you give

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me the key to life and I don't know what the hell, you know,

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I'm going to do tomorrow.

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Alan Watts has a beautiful analogy about this, where he talks about a guitar

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and you can hand a guitar to somebody who doesn't play music and they can strum

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the chords and they can generate sound and that sound can be pretty and that's great,

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and you can also hand that guitar to to someone like gary who can transform

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that not and tell a story and and make you feel love and make you take you on

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a complete different adventure,

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there are, it's just a different type of experience. He holds it like a microphone.

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It's really weird. Does he? Is that how he does it?

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So I struggle, not struggle. I'm trying to, I try to be careful because there

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are, again, three ways people meet psychedelics in America.

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Some meet it on the medical model, some meet it on the spiritual,

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and some meet it on the decriminalization model.

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They do it on a recreational basis or they can't afford the medical model and

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they use decriminalization as an access tool. and I don't want to lose sight of that.

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There are a number of people who certainly had transformative experiences trying

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their first psychedelic at a Grateful Dead concert or some other event.

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So when the opportunity for transformation occurs, it occurs.

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And I don't want to judge or I don't want to be responsible,

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Jay, for telling you when it's okay to explore your consciousness or how it's

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okay to explore your consciousness.

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You'll figure that out yourself. I have full faith and confidence in you.

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And that takes a lot in the spiritual journey to not have an ego wrapped in

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that where you feel like you are the master of the keys.

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You figured it out. And when you pass them out, you can judge people for not

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utilizing them correctly.

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I kind of think of that as anything that I give out as advice throughout my

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life. Before, I used to be upset.

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Like you see somebody squandering what is very valuable information and walking

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off without any kind of change.

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That's not my fucking business. business, right?

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My business is to be me and hand out keys.

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Whatever lock you're at, you could have a pile of them. Whatever lock you're on is your business.

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It could be the first, the last, the middle, whatever it is, that's for you.

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All you have to do is just hand out keys, hand out keys, keep on moving.

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Don't even have to look in the rear view mirror. Most of the time,

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if they're worth it, you know, if they're at that crossroads, they'll catch up to you.

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You'll see them beside you running at some point or another.

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And if not, it's not their tour on the road or their time. It'll come when it comes.

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Yeah, I think it's super. And the ceremonial space, again, with that,

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it just applies to medical as well.

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Our role is to create a safe container for people to do their work.

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It's to make sure they're not physically harmed in any way or that anyone else

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is interfering with their ability to do their work.

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But once they're in that space and there's no contraindications by the way that's

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part of the process in the ceremonial space is making sure that you are physically as safe as can be,

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the experience that person has if they have a great experience they made them

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have a great experience if they have a challenging experience they made themselves

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have a challenging experience so beyond the shaping of the container,

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that's that's the role that I think we have to play as organizers in this space

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and then allow people to do their own work.

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Music.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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00:24:01,583 --> 00:24:07,463
So let's talk about the mental health patient who's found themselves in a psychological

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issue or some kind of mental health problem,

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and they're not confident in the medical side and they are looking to try different

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modicum plant based medicine or something along that lines.

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How do you recommend they dip their toe into that water?

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Obviously, education, but in an overarching approach, what do you think they should do?

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So what you're asking for is somebody who has some type of diagnosis.

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And they say, I don't think this antidepressant is right for me.

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I want to do a different approach.

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I would say to them to think about the different components of what that approach

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is going to look like for them.

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So for example, if you're experiencing a lot of depression, you may need someone

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to talk to about this process.

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Now, finding someone who can talk to you about how that feels,

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as well as what your mindset is, as well as what you're looking for to have

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your mindset be, that's preparation.

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Intention. And then it's your intention, correct? And then if you would like

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to use a tool like a psychedelic, again, assuming that you've checked the contraindications

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and that you've checked family history and things like that,

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and there's been discussion about the risks associated with psychedelics,

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then you're going to use that tool for a moment in time as a catalyst.

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It's not a cure. It's a catalyst. It's an insight. It's an ability to turn off

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the noise, to turn off the inner narrator, to look inside yourself.

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And that's what that tool is used for. And then following that,

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do you have support to help you integrate that into process?

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So sometimes people use therapists, sometimes people use coaches,

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sometimes people use the spiritual community members, and sometimes they use a combination.

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All of that's okay. But the more someone says, you know, I really am experiencing

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a lot of blah, whatever that is, the more important it is that they have a therapist

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or a coach who can help them through this process.

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And then also the more important that community is on the other side of this.

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I'm feeling this because I feel isolated.

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Oh, okay. Now in the psychedelic, I realize, oh my gosh, I'm not isolated.

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I am loved. We are all connected.

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Okay, great. How do I remember that and keep that moving forward in my everyday life? That's hard.

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It is hard, but that's the practice. And that's the thing that I can't stress enough.

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Psychedelics are not a cure. Mindfulness is something that's hard to keep a

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grip on. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, that's okay.

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It's hard to keep a grip on mindfulness, which at its core, we're talking about

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being able to be aware of your surroundings, where you are without living in

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a past or future state or something along that lines.

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I meditate. I've been meditating for about four and a half years.

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Just hit a crossroads in my life where I just couldn't go any further forward.

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I knew that I was not fulfilling what I was here to do.

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I felt a higher calling, I guess you will.

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And I always fought against it. I tried to apply it to other roles.

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But that meditation, it gives you.

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I kind of forgot where I was going here, but the meditation piece of it,

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I think getting in and out of that mindfulness state is kind of like coming

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in and out of meditation.

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For me, I find myself sucked in, right, into reality.

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No longer do I feel like I'm going into mindfulness or into meditation.

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I feel like I'm sucked back into what is the ego, what is what other people

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are playing the game, if that makes sense. It's like a vacuum.

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You can get your head, you know, close to the hole, but as soon as you go through,

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it's pulling on you and it takes more strength to become mindful than it does

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the opposite direction to pull yourself back out of it.

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That's kind of how I feel when it comes to walking that line.

367
00:28:06,589 --> 00:28:10,169
I totally get that. And that resonates. I think I would just reverse your language

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when I, when you're meditating, that is to actually remember reality.

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And that reality is that you are powerful. You are loved. You are enough.

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You are not alone. You are not alone.

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And that you can make this life anything you want it to be. It's your perspective.

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Your life is your perspective.

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When we are not mindful, we get sucked into the culture.

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We get sucked into scarcity as opposed to abundance.

375
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We get sucked into narratives. We get sucked into command and control.

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We get sucked into people pleasing.

377
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That's not reality. That's just how we were raised. And it's the unprogramming

378
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of how we were raised. that makes this powerful.

379
00:28:52,917 --> 00:28:57,557
And again, the psychedelic is just one tool in an arsenal of tools that can

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be used to get back to reality.

381
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Mindfulness and meditation practices are one. Holotropic breath work is another.

382
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I mean, exercise is another. For many people, they can hit meditative states

383
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and exercise and get into flow music for some.

384
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Lots of different ways to remember that the stories of color cells aren't true.

385
00:29:18,177 --> 00:29:24,897
I remember I heard someone say not long ago that we don't learn everything about

386
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the world, no matter what it is, that we're slowly remembering everything.

387
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We just only choose to allow ourselves to intake certain parts of it versus

388
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the knowledge that we already have.

389
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We're already infinite. We're already capable of anything and everything.

390
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We're just living to some pre-described shell or whatever was painted around us.

391
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I watched a video around Halloween about a farmer who, during Halloween,

392
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would grow watermelons in the shape of Frankenstein's head.

393
00:30:00,557 --> 00:30:04,417
And you're like, what is that? That's cute, right? So how does he do that?

394
00:30:04,537 --> 00:30:09,317
Well, he takes a plastic mold the shape of Frankenstein's head, but it's clear.

395
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Takes it, puts it around the baby watermelon, screws it together,

396
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and lets it grow with its suddenly.

397
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Sure as shit, you open it up, what do you got? Frankenstein's head.

398
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My analogy here is, how is that any different from how we grow to a character

399
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or a societal norm or an implicit bias or even a cap on our capabilities or

400
00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:35,596
anything of that nature?

401
00:30:35,696 --> 00:30:38,756
Are we growing to somebody else's mold?

402
00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:44,676
Are we Frankenstein instead of that whole melon that we were actually intended to be?

403
00:30:45,416 --> 00:30:48,676
And what has been without that false mold around us?

404
00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,856
We absolutely are and the false mold

405
00:30:51,856 --> 00:30:54,976
was put on us not out of malintent

406
00:30:54,976 --> 00:30:57,816
it was because our parents and our teachers and our

407
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culture didn't know any better and they were doing the best that they can with

408
00:31:01,556 --> 00:31:06,716
the information they had and they wanted us to quote succeed in life and to

409
00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:12,756
do the best that we could do but the definition of succeed in life was relatively

410
00:31:12,756 --> 00:31:16,256
unexamined in most people's backgrounds the dream

411
00:31:16,696 --> 00:31:18,676
Yeah, and they just, again, they meant well.

412
00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:23,256
But they, yeah, and I'll give, we've been talking about different mental challenges.

413
00:31:23,936 --> 00:31:30,916
Well, we reward our society, we reward and demonize different mental challenges very differently.

414
00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:34,316
So we know how we treat people who are depressed. Oh, you can't get out of bed.

415
00:31:34,416 --> 00:31:37,596
Oh, that poor person, they're not productive.

416
00:31:38,896 --> 00:31:45,176
Versus the person who's a workaholic and can't stop working and gets themselves

417
00:31:45,176 --> 00:31:51,496
in the cover of Fortune magazine or becomes the CEO of an organization through ruthless behavior.

418
00:31:51,836 --> 00:31:54,216
We celebrate that as a culture.

419
00:31:54,956 --> 00:32:01,096
So our definition of success is, again, it's a cultural definition of success,

420
00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:05,676
but it really has nothing to do with who we are at the end.

421
00:32:06,456 --> 00:32:10,736
Yeah that's a good point most of the really rich people I know are pretty miserable

422
00:32:10,736 --> 00:32:15,196
and all they have is one thing you know and it's it's never enough,

423
00:32:15,756 --> 00:32:19,856
and then I know people that don't have much from the outside look in that are

424
00:32:19,856 --> 00:32:23,196
the happiest people you know like spend time with their family and friends and

425
00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:25,936
they don't have mansions and Ferraris and shit like that but they have time

426
00:32:25,936 --> 00:32:27,016
off they have hobbies and.

427
00:32:27,769 --> 00:32:30,089
A lot of people in my business don't have any of that. Like,

428
00:32:30,089 --> 00:32:34,149
just work, work, work, work, work, work, and level up, level up,

429
00:32:34,169 --> 00:32:36,729
bigger house, bigger credits on the screen or whatever.

430
00:32:36,849 --> 00:32:41,089
But the happiness, like, is what you're, like, kind of paying.

431
00:32:41,689 --> 00:32:45,289
Like, your time and happiness is, like, the cost of all that in a way, I think.

432
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:50,229
And if we could only tell each other, sorry, if we would just be open with the

433
00:32:50,229 --> 00:32:55,649
fact that behind every house is an old Western set and behind each one of those

434
00:32:55,649 --> 00:32:57,069
is a pile of people crying.

435
00:32:57,769 --> 00:33:00,489
Like they're all crying and they come back up. Hey, Bob. Hey, Pom.

436
00:33:00,849 --> 00:33:03,889
How's it going? You know, and they get in their cars, they drive off to work.

437
00:33:04,069 --> 00:33:10,929
But everybody knows that behind Kinset is a pile of people with drug issues, crying.

438
00:33:11,429 --> 00:33:14,489
They don't know why they're even here. What the hell is this?

439
00:33:14,749 --> 00:33:16,769
Why do I have to get up every day and do something?

440
00:33:17,069 --> 00:33:20,269
You know, they're just completely confused about existence. But if you go out

441
00:33:20,269 --> 00:33:25,729
there and play make-believe, you have to do it a certain way and walk around and play the game.

442
00:33:25,729 --> 00:33:28,469
That's kind of actually what meditation did for me

443
00:33:28,469 --> 00:33:31,889
I don't know what kind of profound insight anything

444
00:33:31,889 --> 00:33:34,889
is haven't had like I'm not enlightened or anything

445
00:33:34,889 --> 00:33:41,829
like that but he didn't have one small experience after meditating and after

446
00:33:41,829 --> 00:33:46,729
a lot of research I kind of came to the understanding that it is similar to

447
00:33:46,729 --> 00:33:53,409
kind of what you would get in a small dose of psilocybin or something you know

448
00:33:53,409 --> 00:33:54,589
with extended meditation.

449
00:33:54,809 --> 00:33:59,909
I meditated a lot and I started to feel a lot different. I was able to focus

450
00:33:59,909 --> 00:34:02,149
on my breath more, take it into longer term.

451
00:34:02,369 --> 00:34:06,149
You know, you start with 10 minutes, you get to 20 minutes and suddenly you

452
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:08,949
realize you don't itch your nose anymore and that doesn't exist.

453
00:34:09,289 --> 00:34:13,849
And all the weird little uncomfortable things that come with it, they disappear.

454
00:34:14,249 --> 00:34:18,269
And you get to a point where you, for me, realize faith.

455
00:34:18,329 --> 00:34:21,549
Faith is breath returning. That was the first time I understood the word,

456
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:23,609
right? And then be able to watch it.

457
00:34:24,303 --> 00:34:29,863
But after meditation, I went out, took my dog for a walk. I always do.

458
00:34:30,463 --> 00:34:35,023
But I'm by trees. I'm relaxing. And I'm in a good place. Get ready to go to the gym.

459
00:34:36,123 --> 00:34:38,883
One minute, you know something. The other minute, you don't.

460
00:34:38,923 --> 00:34:40,243
Don't know how to describe it.

461
00:34:40,483 --> 00:34:44,203
Couldn't figure out. Couldn't put a pin on it. All I knew is I couldn't stop smiling.

462
00:34:44,883 --> 00:34:49,283
Like I was smiling from ear to ear. My wife thought I was the Joker and there

463
00:34:49,283 --> 00:34:51,383
was a problem with me. I was like, you just don't understand.

464
00:34:51,603 --> 00:34:54,743
Give me a little while to process this. I was like, I got to figure out what

465
00:34:54,743 --> 00:34:57,523
it means. Because right now, I'm not putting the right words on it.

466
00:34:57,543 --> 00:34:59,123
And it's going to suck if I explain it.

467
00:34:59,363 --> 00:35:01,663
Because to me, it was that everybody was insane.

468
00:35:02,423 --> 00:35:06,563
And then it wasn't the right word. I was like, that's not the right word.

469
00:35:06,703 --> 00:35:13,383
And I kind of landed on somewhere around a collective game of make-believe.

470
00:35:14,103 --> 00:35:20,423
Where we're playing a theatrical role. And it's so obvious that it's not.

471
00:35:20,423 --> 00:35:24,063
That we even have tells we're

472
00:35:24,063 --> 00:35:27,803
infinitely capable yet we have actors

473
00:35:27,803 --> 00:35:33,463
and actresses that will go up there and switch we'll do our role i'll be johnny

474
00:35:33,463 --> 00:35:40,003
cubicle and i'll live it until i get cramps high blood pressure and die and

475
00:35:40,003 --> 00:35:45,023
not realize that all the ones on the screen that are actually writing our future too,

476
00:35:45,243 --> 00:35:48,283
are able to switch between characters.

477
00:35:48,363 --> 00:35:52,363
There's tells Heath Ledger, you know, all these method actors that come out

478
00:35:52,363 --> 00:35:54,843
of it completely different. The fuck just happened?

479
00:35:55,203 --> 00:36:01,783
Because they realize that, you know, you play a character in real life too. It's just as fragile.

480
00:36:02,023 --> 00:36:07,203
So the only way that I could pinpoint some kind of words on it was that it was

481
00:36:07,203 --> 00:36:15,543
almost Almost like we were under some kind of fog, that we're in a haze and we don't realize it.

482
00:36:15,603 --> 00:36:18,983
And you can put your head above it and look around and know everybody's in it,

483
00:36:19,003 --> 00:36:22,723
but you can't do anything for the people underneath you. They have to stick up their own head.

484
00:36:23,403 --> 00:36:30,723
What you just said is, again, beautiful. I understand it. I'm playing with you here and just language.

485
00:36:30,923 --> 00:36:35,303
So I just did in terms of up and down. I try to talk about side to side.

486
00:36:35,303 --> 00:36:39,223
So we just, as we examine this type of language, and we're talking to others

487
00:36:39,223 --> 00:36:43,523
about this, it doesn't feel hierarchical. We don't know. I like that.

488
00:36:44,143 --> 00:36:47,463
We're not saying we know better. We're just saying we know different.

489
00:36:48,123 --> 00:36:53,563
Correct. We've been able to step outside the collective spell and see, huh.

490
00:36:55,326 --> 00:36:58,486
There's so many actions that just don't make sense.

491
00:36:59,126 --> 00:37:04,706
We can learn everything about the cosmos and computers and this and that and

492
00:37:04,706 --> 00:37:06,846
the other thing, and we don't know who we are.

493
00:37:07,246 --> 00:37:12,726
Wow. We can spend our lives on these hamster wheels until we die.

494
00:37:12,966 --> 00:37:15,906
Because it's easier than asking the question in our mind.

495
00:37:16,186 --> 00:37:20,106
We're so afraid of it that we're willing to be a workaholic.

496
00:37:20,106 --> 00:37:23,306
Like willing to be a workaholic just so

497
00:37:23,306 --> 00:37:26,066
you don't have to sit down and contemplate while

498
00:37:26,066 --> 00:37:28,846
you're here because it scares the shit out of you for some

499
00:37:28,846 --> 00:37:32,386
reason the only guaranteed thing in life is death yet

500
00:37:32,386 --> 00:37:37,586
we fear the shit out of it like why are you upset in advance if you know something's

501
00:37:37,586 --> 00:37:40,946
going to happen wouldn't you just cherish more of the time between then and

502
00:37:40,946 --> 00:37:46,726
now it doesn't make any sense we spend our culture in church and things talk

503
00:37:46,726 --> 00:37:51,026
a lot about life after death but we We don't spend a lot of time talking about life before death.

504
00:37:51,366 --> 00:37:56,386
But how do we truly live this and live this with a peace and an understanding

505
00:37:56,386 --> 00:37:58,166
that we don't need to look outside.

506
00:37:58,306 --> 00:38:04,286
You know, I have an 18 and a 20 year old and I watch these, my kids and their

507
00:38:04,286 --> 00:38:06,846
friends get told all the time.

508
00:38:07,746 --> 00:38:11,926
And they're growing up in a world where they think that others need to change

509
00:38:11,926 --> 00:38:13,226
the way they talk to them.

510
00:38:13,706 --> 00:38:17,166
You need to address me differently. You need to call me something different.

511
00:38:17,166 --> 00:38:20,046
And it's beautiful that they are asserting themselves. I get that.

512
00:38:21,186 --> 00:38:28,026
But they're looking. They are between trigger warnings and things that are even

513
00:38:28,026 --> 00:38:29,446
the language in college campuses.

514
00:38:29,926 --> 00:38:34,306
I can't hear that or else it will make me feel this way. Maybe.

515
00:38:34,846 --> 00:38:41,146
But maybe the lens should be flipped inside. And instead of changing the road, change the travel.

516
00:38:41,726 --> 00:38:47,706
And I think that would lead to help us with some of this depression and anxiety

517
00:38:47,706 --> 00:38:49,786
and loneliness that we're seeing with our children.

518
00:38:50,306 --> 00:38:54,666
Beautiful, beautiful beings. You're doing great work, fighting for rights and

519
00:38:54,666 --> 00:38:59,806
language that we didn't have growing up and of course that's beautiful and just

520
00:38:59,806 --> 00:39:02,206
want to keep reminding them, you are enough,

521
00:39:02,406 --> 00:39:05,806
you are loved, you are beautiful and if someone calls you something else,

522
00:39:05,826 --> 00:39:08,466
how you interpret that is up to you.

523
00:39:09,126 --> 00:39:13,686
Nobody can make you feel badly. Nobody can make you.

524
00:39:15,131 --> 00:39:18,651
They're like X-Men with psychops with the glasses.

525
00:39:18,811 --> 00:39:22,211
There we go. This is how I look at the generation underneath us or the Gen Z

526
00:39:22,211 --> 00:39:29,351
is that they are empathy at the highest degree and just mowing shit down like

527
00:39:29,351 --> 00:39:31,171
that dude when he takes the glasses off.

528
00:39:31,271 --> 00:39:36,031
I feel like we have to give them those lenses so that it's a concentrated,

529
00:39:36,171 --> 00:39:38,591
you know, point that they're looking at.

530
00:39:38,651 --> 00:39:42,271
They're like, okay, this is actually what we need to be focusing on.

531
00:39:42,271 --> 00:39:44,111
We got to give them lenses.

532
00:39:44,711 --> 00:39:47,431
I love that you said that because I talk about it all the time.

533
00:39:47,511 --> 00:39:51,671
And I think that experiences over time are what comprise our lenses.

534
00:39:52,091 --> 00:39:56,451
And no two people, just like at the dinner table, can swap glasses and see the same thing.

535
00:39:56,631 --> 00:40:01,151
You have to take someone's word for it. You have to believe them. You got to be human.

536
00:40:01,511 --> 00:40:05,171
You got to say, you know what? Those things look pretty fucking thick.

537
00:40:05,371 --> 00:40:09,711
So I better believe that when he looks at a map, people are waving back at him, right?

538
00:40:10,231 --> 00:40:15,011
That's how you got to think about it. It's not my experience, right?

539
00:40:15,091 --> 00:40:19,971
It's your experience. And I've got to believe you, empathize with you.

540
00:40:20,111 --> 00:40:25,271
And then after that, I can make determinations as to whether or not you have some kind of malintent.

541
00:40:25,471 --> 00:40:28,351
But don't put that up front. Absolutely.

542
00:40:29,371 --> 00:40:31,971
What is the intent of someone in any given conversation?

543
00:40:33,131 --> 00:40:39,731
And I understand how it is very tricky that to assume the intention.

544
00:40:40,471 --> 00:40:44,391
The intention is different than the experience and then

545
00:40:44,391 --> 00:40:47,331
also on the experience okay i understand that you walked away

546
00:40:47,331 --> 00:40:50,951
from that situation feeling sad feeling

547
00:40:50,951 --> 00:40:53,891
hurt but that isn't because

548
00:40:53,891 --> 00:40:56,971
of what they said it's because of how you interpreted

549
00:40:56,971 --> 00:41:00,071
it there's a wound in there or how

550
00:41:00,071 --> 00:41:02,751
somebody told you to interpret it like you might have been

551
00:41:02,751 --> 00:41:05,551
fine with it but other people like you're gonna take that

552
00:41:05,551 --> 00:41:08,211
like that's they can't say that like we need to

553
00:41:08,211 --> 00:41:11,351
cancel them we need to blast this everywhere like

554
00:41:11,351 --> 00:41:14,191
we need to tell everybody someone said that word even though

555
00:41:14,191 --> 00:41:17,531
it's like slip up or not what they meant kind of like people get

556
00:41:17,531 --> 00:41:20,371
clout from exposing people even if they

557
00:41:20,371 --> 00:41:24,091
don't you know deserve to be exposed in a way and it's constantly like Fred

558
00:41:24,091 --> 00:41:28,091
how it said in Italian but my grandma used to say like basically like if you

559
00:41:28,091 --> 00:41:31,891
look hard enough you could even see the tits on an ant it was what it like you

560
00:41:31,891 --> 00:41:35,731
know what it equates to it's like people are always always looking for someone

561
00:41:35,731 --> 00:41:38,391
that busts somebody or I got you moment or,

562
00:41:38,951 --> 00:41:43,211
you know, instead of like you come across it, you know, maybe punch me in the

563
00:41:43,211 --> 00:41:46,591
face if it's that messed up or you tell the authorities or you do something,

564
00:41:46,631 --> 00:41:48,351
you handle it in the moment, but people are looking for it.

565
00:41:49,141 --> 00:41:53,481
Constantly scrubbing through old TV shows and movies and just trying to find

566
00:41:53,481 --> 00:41:59,461
one or two moments to cancel somebody or, you know, there's all these pronouns that people use.

567
00:41:59,561 --> 00:42:03,341
Sometimes you just aren't used to talking that way and you slip up and say the

568
00:42:03,341 --> 00:42:05,661
wrong thing. You don't mean it. You're not doing it harmful.

569
00:42:05,861 --> 00:42:09,101
Like, I'm not saying them or they. Like, it's, you know, like,

570
00:42:09,141 --> 00:42:11,741
if they had those people, they would be dealt a different way.

571
00:42:11,781 --> 00:42:16,001
But if you slip up, say I'm sorry or, like, I didn't know, like, cool.

572
00:42:16,161 --> 00:42:18,461
But I know people that have, like, gotten in a lot of trouble for that.

573
00:42:18,461 --> 00:42:21,681
That four or two little slip-ups, like people are going after their job,

574
00:42:21,741 --> 00:42:25,041
you know, taking food out of their kid's mouth because he accidentally said

575
00:42:25,041 --> 00:42:26,661
something, you know, and it wasn't even that bad.

576
00:42:27,101 --> 00:42:30,721
I think like... Yeah, weaponized empathy. It is. Like, it's rough.

577
00:42:30,821 --> 00:42:33,641
And like, there's a lot of people are alone and they're just staring in that

578
00:42:33,641 --> 00:42:35,181
echo chamber all day. You know,

579
00:42:35,201 --> 00:42:38,361
it's like, we didn't have the internet growing up, like we had outside.

580
00:42:38,761 --> 00:42:42,501
So it was like, yeah, we did have a bit of an echo chamber because all of our

581
00:42:42,501 --> 00:42:45,761
friends kind of, in a way, thought similarly if they grew up with them.

582
00:42:45,821 --> 00:42:49,381
But now it's like, Like you just look all day and a little thing in your hand

583
00:42:49,381 --> 00:42:51,981
to like, you know, this is what I think.

584
00:42:52,001 --> 00:42:54,841
Like I need to look up much information that makes it to like,

585
00:42:54,881 --> 00:42:57,481
I feel like I'm right. Like you never get outside.

586
00:42:57,781 --> 00:43:00,381
What'd you look for? Yeah. Every time, you know, it's like.

587
00:43:01,925 --> 00:43:06,305
I think that loneliness, like, loneliness is a big problem, I think,

588
00:43:06,325 --> 00:43:07,485
with depression and everything else.

589
00:43:07,565 --> 00:43:11,305
We're stuck with, you know, no distractions, no hobbies, nothing.

590
00:43:11,445 --> 00:43:14,625
And you're just kind of looking and you see what everyone else has.

591
00:43:15,085 --> 00:43:18,585
Everyone's false persona they have on Instagram, like, looks so happy.

592
00:43:18,685 --> 00:43:22,685
Like, everyone's so pretty. Like, everyone's so fit. It's all filters and masks.

593
00:43:22,885 --> 00:43:26,425
And, you know, so many people I know get divorced when they have the happiest life on Instagram.

594
00:43:26,685 --> 00:43:30,065
Like, wow, they look like the best couple you've ever seen. And it turns out

595
00:43:30,065 --> 00:43:31,265
they're terrible and they hate each other.

596
00:43:31,265 --> 00:43:34,145
Like you know it's like think people just sit there

597
00:43:34,145 --> 00:43:36,925
and think what they don't have beautiful and hate

598
00:43:36,925 --> 00:43:39,765
each other too yeah it's like

599
00:43:39,765 --> 00:43:42,905
it's rough i think you know for being

600
00:43:42,905 --> 00:43:45,625
your kids age 18 and 20 like they have a lot to deal with

601
00:43:45,625 --> 00:43:48,945
it like we didn't have to deal with it's a lot of different you

602
00:43:48,945 --> 00:43:52,705
know the rules are changing you don't really know what they are and kind

603
00:43:52,705 --> 00:43:55,685
of like it's it's that's that's a rough age i think these

604
00:43:55,685 --> 00:43:58,985
days my nephew just turned 21 and i talked to him and i'm

605
00:43:58,985 --> 00:44:01,725
talking about like just like i don't

606
00:44:01,725 --> 00:44:04,505
know because they're like gen x squared i think because we

607
00:44:04,505 --> 00:44:07,345
went through that technological boom in our generation where we

608
00:44:07,345 --> 00:44:10,105
got into computers we were you know our parents didn't understand what

609
00:44:10,105 --> 00:44:15,345
the hell we were talking about and we were moving through the commodore 64 and

610
00:44:15,345 --> 00:44:20,825
into windows and all this other shit you know now it's a completely different

611
00:44:20,825 --> 00:44:26,925
level right it's going through another age like the 90s and 80s where it's moving

612
00:44:26,925 --> 00:44:29,665
at mach 1 that That generation, like your kid's age,

613
00:44:29,725 --> 00:44:34,905
or the ones right behind them, are going to be pedal to the metal and translating backwards.

614
00:44:35,045 --> 00:44:38,905
We're going to be dumb as shit standing next to them, just like the baby boomer parents are now.

615
00:44:39,145 --> 00:44:44,045
You're in a virtual, you're going to give me a who, a what, my laser shoes, what the fuck is this?

616
00:44:44,865 --> 00:44:48,265
Like, you know, we're going to be standing there like a pig staring at a wristwatch.

617
00:44:48,525 --> 00:44:52,405
But I think that they have the opportunity to do some fucking amazing things.

618
00:44:52,400 --> 00:45:58,800
Music.

619
00:45:59,449 --> 00:46:05,929
What I hope we don't lose track of is this is still the best time ever in the

620
00:46:05,929 --> 00:46:07,889
history of the world to be alive.

621
00:46:08,249 --> 00:46:14,149
All metrics, hunger is down, violence against other humans is down,

622
00:46:14,329 --> 00:46:19,429
the amount of people living above poverty is up. up.

623
00:46:19,449 --> 00:46:21,789
There are so many good things happening.

624
00:46:22,169 --> 00:46:29,069
And we are reminded at a new pace of the things that are not so ideal that are happening.

625
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:33,609
And both of those things can be true. And we are in a transformative period

626
00:46:33,609 --> 00:46:36,769
and transformations are messy and that's all okay.

627
00:46:37,649 --> 00:46:41,889
But the more of us that can remind each other, you're beautiful.

628
00:46:42,049 --> 00:46:44,909
You're doing great work. You're doing the best that you know how to do.

629
00:46:45,009 --> 00:46:48,549
You're doing the best that you've, that whatever's happened to get you to this

630
00:46:48,549 --> 00:46:51,589
moment needed to happen to get you to this moment. It's all okay.

631
00:46:52,509 --> 00:46:55,869
And what's going to happen in the future is going to be different.

632
00:46:57,249 --> 00:47:00,489
Climate change, yeah. Whether it's man-made or not, it doesn't matter.

633
00:47:00,929 --> 00:47:04,369
There's things happening with the climate. It's going to be a different world

634
00:47:04,369 --> 00:47:06,809
for our kids and our grandkids in the world that we lived in.

635
00:47:06,889 --> 00:47:09,349
And that's okay because we are adaptable beings.

636
00:47:10,269 --> 00:47:13,189
And we can take that around any of these things that we're talking about.

637
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:17,129
But the more that we can explore ourselves, understand who we are,

638
00:47:17,149 --> 00:47:21,829
understand, remember who who we are at our core, the better we can support our

639
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:25,149
partners, support our children, support our brothers and sisters,

640
00:47:25,229 --> 00:47:26,389
support our communities.

641
00:47:26,769 --> 00:47:30,149
And that's incredible. And that's where we're going to take this full circle

642
00:47:30,149 --> 00:47:31,829
back to the power of psychedelics.

643
00:47:31,909 --> 00:47:35,609
Whether you take a psychedelic yourself, that's not important.

644
00:47:36,169 --> 00:47:40,289
But you might, or you might have choose for someone you love,

645
00:47:40,529 --> 00:47:43,809
might take one, or you might just need this information to understand how you're

646
00:47:43,809 --> 00:47:45,009
going to vote in the next election.

647
00:47:45,249 --> 00:47:48,729
But these things are helping to transform society for the positive.

648
00:47:49,029 --> 00:47:52,669
And society is continuing to change for the positive. And this is one more tool

649
00:47:52,669 --> 00:47:54,729
that we all get to be a part of.

650
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:59,449
And science, taking all the way back to that, is validating what our...

651
00:47:59,449 --> 00:48:01,369
Quantum. ...brothers and sisters... Quantum mechanics.

652
00:48:02,029 --> 00:48:06,149
...it's all connecting. So what an amazing time to be alive, Jay and Gary.

653
00:48:06,389 --> 00:48:10,589
Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I think we're in heaven already and that it's

654
00:48:10,589 --> 00:48:15,529
just an understanding of what reality is that actually shapes where we are.

655
00:48:15,789 --> 00:48:19,829
I think eternal life Life is nothing more than stepping through the void of understanding.

656
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:23,189
And if we looked around, we'd already know that we're here.

657
00:48:23,689 --> 00:48:26,049
We're creating all of our own chaos.

658
00:48:26,649 --> 00:48:30,229
Like we're literally doing a species. Stop punching yourself.

659
00:48:31,409 --> 00:48:34,089
I think just hitting ourselves for no reason.

660
00:48:35,144 --> 00:48:39,284
I think like the old psychedelic thing, I think there's just so many different

661
00:48:39,284 --> 00:48:41,724
uses for different things that people could get from it.

662
00:48:41,764 --> 00:48:44,764
And I think people don't even know what's possible.

663
00:48:45,144 --> 00:48:50,324
Like I've done quite a few and going all the way back when I was 15 years old, I think 14.

664
00:48:50,784 --> 00:48:53,824
And it was always for recreational purposes back then.

665
00:48:53,924 --> 00:49:00,584
And I never really had what I thought was like benefits from them until a couple of years ago.

666
00:49:00,744 --> 00:49:05,164
And my best friend passed away way and we used to do mushrooms and shit a lot

667
00:49:05,164 --> 00:49:08,084
of college i'm in my 40s now so it was a while ago,

668
00:49:08,844 --> 00:49:13,724
did acids and mescaline did mushrooms you know a bunch of different stuff but

669
00:49:13,724 --> 00:49:18,524
he had like half ounce of shrooms in his fridge and he got cancer and he gave

670
00:49:18,524 --> 00:49:21,824
them to me and he's like when i get better we're gonna do these you know he

671
00:49:21,824 --> 00:49:25,164
didn't make it the 18 months of pretty rough suffering,

672
00:49:25,664 --> 00:49:30,224
and you know we went into covid and like thought about him a lot but i never

673
00:49:30,224 --> 00:49:33,624
i was away doing a tv TV show in Tennessee when he passed away and I didn't

674
00:49:33,624 --> 00:49:35,084
come back for like eight months after.

675
00:49:35,284 --> 00:49:39,064
And I was always gone a lot. So I wasn't used to seeing like family and friends

676
00:49:39,064 --> 00:49:41,604
all the time. I'd go once and maybe a year without seeing people.

677
00:49:41,804 --> 00:49:43,184
So it's not like something I see every day.

678
00:49:44,444 --> 00:49:48,724
So I was here at my house and I wanted to get a microwave pizza out of the freezer

679
00:49:48,724 --> 00:49:52,284
and the bag was stuck to the back of the pizza box and fell on the ground.

680
00:49:52,704 --> 00:49:55,964
And I just, without even thinking, I just picked it up and grabbed a handful

681
00:49:55,964 --> 00:49:56,744
of them and just ate them.

682
00:49:57,004 --> 00:49:59,884
Now it's probably not the way way to do it but i was

683
00:49:59,884 --> 00:50:02,684
like yeah i just wasn't even thinking i was like oh shit

684
00:50:02,684 --> 00:50:05,344
okay this is gonna be a thing now so i'm like

685
00:50:05,344 --> 00:50:08,364
all right i'm like i have

686
00:50:08,364 --> 00:50:13,224
to like safety proof my plans yeah i'm like all right safety proof everything

687
00:50:13,224 --> 00:50:17,424
like mainly like don't go on the phone like because i don't know what's about

688
00:50:17,424 --> 00:50:20,784
to happen so put my phone on silent the only person i told my brother he lives

689
00:50:20,784 --> 00:50:23,824
a mile away i'm like hey he said a bunch of shrooms i'm gonna be fine about

690
00:50:23,824 --> 00:50:26,004
100 times check on me in like five hours.

691
00:50:26,784 --> 00:50:30,164
And that was it. That's the only person I talked to. So, you know,

692
00:50:30,184 --> 00:50:33,644
I wasn't expecting to have any kind of weird...

693
00:50:34,622 --> 00:50:37,482
Or not weird or any kind of, I didn't even know what to expect.

694
00:50:37,622 --> 00:50:40,902
But I started thinking about him and I cried my eyes out for like two hours

695
00:50:40,902 --> 00:50:46,242
and like just super sad kind of, but like kind of purged it all in a way.

696
00:50:46,342 --> 00:50:49,382
And then I started watching the movies that he liked. He loved The Godfather

697
00:50:49,382 --> 00:50:51,322
and Happy Gilmore and a couple others.

698
00:50:51,422 --> 00:50:52,642
I started like watching those and

699
00:50:52,642 --> 00:50:55,822
playing, he was a DJ, started playing records that I had that were his.

700
00:50:55,982 --> 00:51:00,242
And I just started like talking to him and like remembering all the good stuff

701
00:51:00,242 --> 00:51:01,822
because I just watched him suffer for two years.

702
00:51:01,882 --> 00:51:04,362
And that was like all the memories I had like recently in my brain.

703
00:51:04,622 --> 00:51:07,582
And like I woke up the next day and

704
00:51:07,582 --> 00:51:10,542
like it felt like I processed it finally like I

705
00:51:10,542 --> 00:51:13,702
I made peace with it in a way I had

706
00:51:13,702 --> 00:51:18,462
like got it out and like remembered the stuff I wasn't remembering because I

707
00:51:18,462 --> 00:51:22,882
was just remembering the bad shit and like it definitely changed a lot and then

708
00:51:22,882 --> 00:51:26,942
it's like a weird thing we have a mutual friend and he called me the next day

709
00:51:26,942 --> 00:51:30,662
and he's like man yesterday was pretty fucked up huh and I was like what so

710
00:51:30,662 --> 00:51:31,642
yeah it was a rough day and,

711
00:51:32,202 --> 00:51:35,122
talking about did I call you like whatever and he's like oh it was Drew's birthday

712
00:51:35,122 --> 00:51:36,582
you didn't remember and I was like fuck,

713
00:51:37,042 --> 00:51:42,302
like really weird coincidence I guess but like those had been in my freezer

714
00:51:42,302 --> 00:51:46,182
for like three years maybe longer I've never touched them they just I've never

715
00:51:46,182 --> 00:51:48,962
even really looked at them they were all the way in the back and it happened

716
00:51:48,962 --> 00:51:51,562
happened so I don't know if it's,

717
00:51:52,122 --> 00:51:57,042
coincidence God like whatever I didn't taste but like shit but.

718
00:51:58,362 --> 00:52:01,382
Freezer burnt mushrooms yeah I mean they're not that's probably Probably not

719
00:52:01,382 --> 00:52:06,162
the best way, but I just, you know, kind of sprayed or something and just pounded him down.

720
00:52:06,342 --> 00:52:09,662
I'm not recommending anybody does that in any way.

721
00:52:09,882 --> 00:52:13,062
Like, there's definitely ways to do it. Not that, but.

722
00:52:14,421 --> 00:52:17,961
Yeah, I looked at it in a whole different way after that. Because before that,

723
00:52:18,061 --> 00:52:23,201
I was just like, hey, let's go, you know, let's go watch Fantasia at the IMAX

724
00:52:23,201 --> 00:52:26,581
theater and you'd want shrooms or let's run around on a strip or let's go to

725
00:52:26,581 --> 00:52:29,241
the beach or like, yeah, we did that a few times.

726
00:52:30,341 --> 00:52:34,121
So, which not saying you should do any of that stuff, but I never thought of

727
00:52:34,121 --> 00:52:36,601
it until and then, you know. Thanks for sharing that story.

728
00:52:37,341 --> 00:52:40,881
Yeah, it's. Thank you, Gary. It sure sounds like a special person in your life.

729
00:52:40,981 --> 00:52:44,001
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, he was, you know, he was the one that was

730
00:52:44,001 --> 00:52:48,281
always telling me, like, you know, you're the man, like, we'll do this.

731
00:52:48,461 --> 00:52:51,721
Like, you could, anything I didn't think I could do, he was right there telling

732
00:52:51,721 --> 00:52:56,361
me, like, fuck that. Why not? These people, you're just as smart as them. You're just as capable.

733
00:52:56,621 --> 00:52:59,041
Like, he's always like, I always say hype your friends.

734
00:52:59,461 --> 00:53:01,701
And like, I tried to do that, but like, I got that from him.

735
00:53:01,761 --> 00:53:05,081
He was like the biggest hype man. Like, if he needed something,

736
00:53:05,241 --> 00:53:06,461
he'd be there. Fix anything.

737
00:53:07,321 --> 00:53:10,401
Like, he didn't want money. He didn't want recognition. ignition

738
00:53:10,401 --> 00:53:13,441
he would just you know feel like fuck man i'm feeling shitty today

739
00:53:13,441 --> 00:53:16,681
he'd be like all right i'm coming over with the pizza like tough shit

740
00:53:16,681 --> 00:53:19,361
like i'm coming anyways like if you want me or not you know or like

741
00:53:19,361 --> 00:53:22,121
garbage disposal is not you know work what the

742
00:53:22,121 --> 00:53:26,841
fuck like 20 minutes later is there tools you know and it's like half my tools

743
00:53:26,841 --> 00:53:29,101
are for him because he's always like what kind of manner you don't have any

744
00:53:29,101 --> 00:53:32,961
fucking tools and like he just always break my balls but you just leave just

745
00:53:32,961 --> 00:53:37,501
take this little tool bag i got more at home like i would never ask for a dollar

746
00:53:37,501 --> 00:53:38,881
or anything thing but you know

747
00:53:38,881 --> 00:53:42,081
i knew known for 20 years and he was just always like that kind of guy so.

748
00:53:43,409 --> 00:53:46,889
I remembered all that stuff more, you know, instead of just like watching him,

749
00:53:46,909 --> 00:53:48,729
you know, deteriorate and all the shit.

750
00:53:48,889 --> 00:53:52,269
And they pumped him for all these drugs when he had cancer. And like the weed

751
00:53:52,269 --> 00:53:53,709
was the only thing that made him feel better.

752
00:53:53,789 --> 00:53:56,009
And the doctors didn't want him to do it, but it's the only thing that made

753
00:53:56,009 --> 00:53:58,829
him even be able to eat or sleep or anything.

754
00:53:59,309 --> 00:54:03,509
And it's like, maybe it wasn't helping, but it was at least making him comfortable.

755
00:54:03,569 --> 00:54:07,729
And then, you know, it's a rough thing, but it helped me a lot.

756
00:54:07,729 --> 00:54:12,169
Because I was, I would go through like really bad weeks of just like really

757
00:54:12,169 --> 00:54:14,009
bad depression, like started thinking about him.

758
00:54:14,489 --> 00:54:21,689
My other best friend that I grew up with, same thing. He passed away a little before that.

759
00:54:21,969 --> 00:54:25,889
And I grew up doing like all the hallucinations and stuff like with him.

760
00:54:25,909 --> 00:54:28,089
That's what we like started doing them together and stuff in high school.

761
00:54:28,529 --> 00:54:31,729
So it kind of helped me process that one too. And like, I was just like,

762
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:34,769
all right, like now, I don't do them that often, but when I do,

763
00:54:34,809 --> 00:54:38,289
like I think about those guys in like a very positive way. I don't get sad.

764
00:54:38,509 --> 00:54:42,209
It's like, you know, just like they're kind of there like talking to me.

765
00:54:42,249 --> 00:54:43,829
And I remember stuff I don't normally remember.

766
00:54:44,089 --> 00:54:48,209
Like the memories are more vivid. Like, you know, it's like I remember,

767
00:54:48,289 --> 00:54:50,089
you know, I was at the school dance normally.

768
00:54:50,229 --> 00:54:53,309
But then I can't remember what we were wearing, what music was playing,

769
00:54:53,469 --> 00:54:56,769
what car we drove in. Like the details seem to come back.

770
00:54:56,889 --> 00:55:00,609
So it's cool. It's like a different vibe these days, I guess.

771
00:55:01,469 --> 00:55:06,889
But I think everybody should try them under the right circumstances.

772
00:55:08,009 --> 00:55:11,289
Small dosage and see, you know, when that, you know.

773
00:55:11,749 --> 00:55:15,029
We eat everything else. Why do we think that that's the one that's coming out

774
00:55:15,029 --> 00:55:16,949
of the earth that's not good for us? Yeah.

775
00:55:17,129 --> 00:55:20,189
Right? We trust it 99% of the time, but not emotionally.

776
00:55:20,969 --> 00:55:25,269
Like, that's dangerous, you know, but we'll get drunk off of grapes and all

777
00:55:25,269 --> 00:55:27,789
this other shit, you know, and take a poison.

778
00:55:28,189 --> 00:55:30,129
Just do some shrooms, a little bit.

779
00:55:30,969 --> 00:55:35,389
Microdose. VA's doing it, right? They're finding different ways to get people,

780
00:55:35,489 --> 00:55:40,209
you know, to have that transcendental experience of some sort so they realize

781
00:55:40,209 --> 00:55:43,049
that PTSD and pain is a choice.

782
00:55:44,469 --> 00:55:49,389
Yeah, Gary, again, thank you. What you just talked about, the ability to use

783
00:55:49,389 --> 00:55:55,009
these to connect with those that have gone before is so powerful.

784
00:55:55,149 --> 00:56:01,489
We're seeing amazing research with these medicines for people in active end-of-life

785
00:56:01,489 --> 00:56:04,149
with terminal illness and in transitioning periods.

786
00:56:04,149 --> 00:56:07,809
We don't talk as much about these medicines

787
00:56:07,809 --> 00:56:12,889
used for the people who are witnessing the people in end-of-life and how powerful

788
00:56:12,889 --> 00:56:17,609
it is for their family and friends to be able to take these medicines at the

789
00:56:17,609 --> 00:56:24,149
same time or around the experience so that everybody has a different understanding of what potentially...

790
00:56:25,980 --> 00:56:29,780
Is that a recommendation of some sort? Not necessarily a recommendation.

791
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:30,780
Don't you endorse something.

792
00:56:30,980 --> 00:56:35,000
But say you have a family member in end stage,

793
00:56:35,180 --> 00:56:40,360
you know, whatever cancer or in hospice or they're in that scenario where that

794
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,340
would benefit them, that would allow them to reconcile the fact that they're

795
00:56:45,340 --> 00:56:48,660
going to pass and what it actually means, you know, in reality.

796
00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:54,780
Do you recommend or have you seen situations where groups of people or families

797
00:56:54,780 --> 00:57:00,680
will take the, you know, take shrooms together and help them pass as a grouping?

798
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,580
Yeah, absolutely. You see it. So, so, and then I'm sorry.

799
00:57:04,820 --> 00:57:08,360
That's fine. You have a hard stop. I apologize. Let's just take this though.

800
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:10,140
And I want to stick on this for just a moment.

801
00:57:10,780 --> 00:57:15,200
So absolutely. So people in the fight, there's wonderful research from NYU,

802
00:57:15,620 --> 00:57:21,460
Johns Hopkins, UCLA about the power of these four people with terminal illnesses,

803
00:57:21,540 --> 00:57:24,020
the power to reduce depression, reduce anxiety.

804
00:57:24,820 --> 00:57:28,600
It doesn't change the prognosis, but it changes the way they live,

805
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,920
the quality of life during that period.

806
00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:35,920
We then talk, what you're talking about here is do we see in the ceremonial

807
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,060
space more than medical that people do these as a group? Absolutely. Absolutely.

808
00:57:40,980 --> 00:57:46,580
And we also see people who, after someone has transitioned, decide to take these

809
00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:49,440
as a way to reconnect and as a way to process what's happened.

810
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:54,480
And all of that is beautiful and an important, I think, use of these particular tools.

811
00:57:55,526 --> 00:58:01,146
I agree 110 there's um for people in end of life the the person i always recommend

812
00:58:01,146 --> 00:58:06,926
people go to is spiritpharmacist.com it's dr ben malcolm he's a farm d who specializes

813
00:58:06,926 --> 00:58:08,306
in psychedelic pharmacology.

814
00:58:09,126 --> 00:58:12,366
Many times with people in end of life they have different medications and different

815
00:58:12,366 --> 00:58:16,126
things that they are on that just make some psychedelics more challenging than

816
00:58:16,126 --> 00:58:21,506
others he does a for anyone he'll do a full medical intake review what medicine

817
00:58:21,506 --> 00:58:25,906
you're on and review what medicine what psychedelics you're thinking about and

818
00:58:25,906 --> 00:58:26,886
just give you an honest opinion.

819
00:58:27,026 --> 00:58:29,606
He has nothing to sell you. He's not selling you a psychedelic retreat.

820
00:58:29,806 --> 00:58:33,786
He's not selling you a psychedelic tourism experience. He's not selling you a ketamine package.

821
00:58:34,006 --> 00:58:37,346
He's just providing you information so that you can make an informed decision

822
00:58:37,346 --> 00:58:39,406
for whatever is right for you. So selfless.

823
00:58:39,946 --> 00:58:43,506
It's lovely. He does great work and I highly recommend him.

824
00:58:44,106 --> 00:58:47,206
Spiritpharmacist.com. Matt, I want to give you a chance to plug your book real

825
00:58:47,206 --> 00:58:49,826
quick and tell everybody where they can find you, your services,

826
00:58:49,906 --> 00:58:53,166
anything that you're working on and also give you a chance to come back.

827
00:58:53,446 --> 00:58:56,786
I would love to. I mean, you guys brought it on today. You did.

828
00:58:57,066 --> 00:59:02,666
I'm so appreciative of how you handled this podcast and the questions that you

829
00:59:02,666 --> 00:59:05,846
asked, the stories that you told, the vulnerability that you shared.

830
00:59:06,046 --> 00:59:08,266
It was just beautiful. Really, really authentic.

831
00:59:08,486 --> 00:59:11,846
And I appreciate that very much that this wasn't, neither of us were just,

832
00:59:11,866 --> 00:59:12,726
we're trying to sell anything.

833
00:59:12,926 --> 00:59:16,626
We're just talking. Felt very human, very connected. Thank you. I appreciate that.

834
00:59:17,106 --> 00:59:21,386
There's, for people in end of life, the person I always recommend people go

835
00:59:21,386 --> 00:59:24,606
to is spiritpharmacist.com. It's Dr. Ben Malcolm.

836
00:59:24,726 --> 00:59:27,906
He's a PharmD who specializes in psychedelic pharmacology.

837
00:59:28,506 --> 00:59:32,006
Many times with people at end of life, they have different medications and different

838
00:59:32,006 --> 00:59:36,046
things that they are on that just make some psychedelics more challenging than others.

839
00:59:36,546 --> 00:59:41,146
He does a, for anyone, he'll do a full medical intake, review what medicine

840
00:59:41,146 --> 00:59:46,546
you're on and review what psychedelics you're thinking about and just give you an honest opinion.

841
00:59:46,686 --> 00:59:49,246
He has nothing to sell you. He's not selling you a psychedelic retreat.

842
00:59:49,466 --> 00:59:53,446
He's not selling you a psychedelic tourism experience. He's not selling you a ketamine package.

843
00:59:53,646 --> 00:59:58,886
He's just providing you information so that you can make an informed decision. That's it. Thank you.

844
00:59:59,586 --> 01:00:03,586
It feels good to be seen. You are seen. So I have two books out there.

845
01:00:03,626 --> 01:00:07,426
I do have Psychedelics for Everyone, which is available really anywhere books are sold.

846
01:00:07,526 --> 01:00:11,166
There's an audible version that people seem to like, and that's kind of an overview

847
01:00:11,166 --> 01:00:14,346
of all things psychedelic. I'm about three quarters of the way through it.

848
01:00:14,926 --> 01:00:17,066
That's nice. I've been listening to the audible version. It's amazing.

849
01:00:17,326 --> 01:00:20,566
By the way, you have a great voice. And it's your wife as well, right?

850
01:00:20,726 --> 01:00:24,726
Is that your wife? It was a narrator who did the woman who's deep in this work.

851
01:00:24,746 --> 01:00:26,806
Okay, yeah. The woman wrote. She agreed to.

852
01:00:27,006 --> 01:00:30,766
She's amazing. And then there's a, I have a journal for those who've already

853
01:00:30,766 --> 01:00:34,986
found their self with medicine, whether it's legal or underground or whatever,

854
01:00:35,146 --> 01:00:37,466
and it helps you prepare and then integrate the experiences.

855
01:00:37,486 --> 01:00:41,606
It's got exercises for four weeks following a ceremony with a gratitude journal.

856
01:00:42,306 --> 01:00:46,506
That's called Beyond the Trip. And then my website's mattzieman.com.

857
01:00:46,726 --> 01:00:48,506
There's a free guide to microdosing there.

858
01:00:49,426 --> 01:00:57,386
And I'm always available if someone is looking for speakers or has some one-on-one questions.

859
01:00:57,426 --> 01:01:00,526
That's a good place to go and book a call with me and talk about those types of things.

860
01:01:01,226 --> 01:01:06,126
You're amazing. I can't thank you enough. Gary, do you have anything you want to wrap up with?

861
01:01:06,506 --> 01:01:10,286
I got probably a million things to talk about, so we can do that on the next

862
01:01:10,286 --> 01:01:14,106
one. But, you know, I really appreciate you coming on and all the work that you're doing.

863
01:01:14,346 --> 01:01:17,526
And, you know, without people like you, we wouldn't be making any progress in

864
01:01:17,526 --> 01:01:20,446
any of these ways. So definitely appreciate it.

865
01:01:21,286 --> 01:01:27,986
Thank you for spreading the word. Thank you for getting this out in a safe manner

866
01:01:27,986 --> 01:01:32,006
and respecting both the power and the promise that's here.

867
01:01:32,106 --> 01:01:35,286
I appreciate all your vulnerability today. Thank you, Jen. Go, Gary.

868
01:01:35,986 --> 01:01:39,546
Thank you so much, Matt. Remember, everybody, be cool and keep learning.

869
01:01:40,720 --> 01:02:05,354
Music.